The “Delisting” Wave Putting Years of Housing Market Gains at Risk

Dave:
Good offers and large reductions have been simpler to seek out during the last couple of months, however may that change as increasingly more sellers begin fleeing the housing market? Are we truly on observe for a return to tighter stock right this moment available on the market? We’re moving into the newest traits which are shifting within the housing market and may have large implications for all the actual property business. Hey everybody. Welcome to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. I hope you all had an exquisite break for Thanksgiving. Earlier than we get into right this moment’s present, I did need to lengthen my thanks for all of you, the BiggerPockets and the available on the market neighborhood. We’re very fortunate to have you ever. We’re very fortunate to have the ability to make this present for you twice per week. So from all the BiggerPockets crew, thanks for all of the help on your listenership during the last 12 months.
We’re actually enthusiastic about what we’ve got deliberate for you within the coming 12 months. There’s extra nice available on the market episodes to return. So with that mentioned, since we have been on break for per week, quite a bit has occurred within the housing market and that’s what we’re going to go over first. In right this moment’s episode, I’m going to only run by means of a little bit of housing market information simply to ensure everybody is aware of what’s happening with the newest traits and the newest information. Then we’re going to spend so much of time in right this moment’s episode speaking about this new dynamic that’s evolving within the housing market. We haven’t seen this in fairly some time, truly eight years. We haven’t seen this dynamic emerge. It’s delisting principally folks pulling their houses off the market and there are lots of implications for this. So we’re going to dig into that after which in the direction of the top of the episode, I’m going to speak a bit bit extra concerning the American shopper.
I’ve put out some details about this, however the extra I examine it, the extra information that we get. Now that the federal government is again open, I’ve increasingly more issues concerning the common American and clearly that fuels the housing market that fuels rental demand. And so I’m going to speak a bit bit about how some growing traits with the American shopper may spill over into the housing and rental markets going into 2026. In order that’s the plan for right this moment. Let’s get into it. First up, let’s discuss house costs. They’re nonetheless up nominally 12 months over 12 months relying on who you ask. Should you take a look at Redfin, which supplies more moderen information, it says it’s up about 2.3% 12 months over 12 months. So I simply need to name out. I made my prediction about one 12 months in the past. I feel I mentioned it was going to be 2.5% 12 months over 12 months.
It’s at 2.3%. It’s fairly good. I can’t wait to rub that in when James and Henry and Kathy are on to make our predictions for subsequent 12 months in a few weeks, however they’re not right here proper now, so I’m going to brag about that a bit bit whereas they’ll’t defend themselves. In order that’s good. And people are the numbers that we’ve used to make predictions, however I ought to name out that in the event you take a look at different information sources just like the Case Schiller index, that lags a bit bit, but it surely’s nonetheless exhibiting that costs are up 1.3%. In order that’s what we’re seeing during the last couple of months of 2025. Now, the truth that these house costs are up could be at odds with what I mentioned in the beginning, which is that house costs are in a correction. So I simply need to clarify that a bit bit as a result of I’ve been saying for a few months, I feel possibly most of this 12 months that I feel we’re in a correction.
And there’s principally two causes for that. Before everything is the pattern. The common appreciation throughout the nation a 12 months in the past was nearer to five%. Earlier than that, it was like 8% years. Earlier than that, it was double digits, which isn’t regular and we’re seeing a reversion of appreciation again to frame regular ranges. Truly, the typical appreciation charge in the US during the last couple of a long time is about three and a 5%. We at the moment are under that by just about each measure I’ve seen, which to me is only the start of a pattern and we’re going to see house value progress in nominal phrases, not inflation adjusted phrases go down even additional. However the actual cause I feel we’re in a housing correction is predicated on what I simply mentioned concerning the distinction between nominal non inflation adjusted and actual, which simply in economics means inflation adjusted house costs.
As a result of in the event you take a look at house value progress, what’s occurred in 2025 is that house costs are rising slower than the speed of inflation. And I do know this may simply look like a trivial distinction, however to me it’s fairly vital as a result of once I spend money on one thing personally, I would like the worth of that to not less than hold tempo with inflation. Now, when you have leverage and you’re taking out loans, it doesn’t must work precisely that means, however I do assume it’s an vital benchmark for the housing market whether or not actual house costs are going up or down they usually’re undoubtedly down. Even in the event you take the upper quantity that I simply referenced, Redfin, proper? That’s 2.3%. The CPI, the buyer value index, that’s our inflation information. That’s at 3.1%. So even in essentially the most optimistic view, actual house costs, inflation adjusted house costs are down 1%. Should you take a look at the case Schiller, which is a really respected index, it’s down about 2% and this to me means we’re in a housing correction the place relative to folks’s incomes relative to inflation, house costs are happening.
Now this comes with each professionals and cons. It implies that sure, in case you are proudly owning property, it’s not protecting tempo with inflation when you have no debt on it, but it surely additionally means issues are literally getting comparatively extra inexpensive even with mortgage charges staying the place they’re. As a result of what this measurement tells us is that as a result of house costs are following and actual wage progress, which is inflation adjusted revenue is definitely going up. Which means houses are getting a bit bit extra inexpensive and for my part, any enchancment in affordability is an efficient factor. Now, after all, not every part is identical throughout the nation. We’re nonetheless seeing very completely different markets, however every part is kind of shifting in the identical path. And actually, once you take a look at the Case Shiller index, they put out this 20 metropolis index and solely 4 of these markets are seeing actual house value progress.
Chicago is main the pack, it’s up 5.5% in nominal phrases. So that truly seems to about 2.4% actual returns. New York Metropolis is up, Boston is up just a bit bit, Cleveland’s up a bit bit, however everybody else, all different 16, so 80% of all of the markets that they observe on the case Schiller are destructive. A variety of them are fairly near flat, however once you take a look at essentially the most excessive instance of that, Tampa, which has destructive 4% nominal house value progress, after which in the event you add the inflation onto that, that’s destructive 7%. That’s actual correction territory in Tampa particularly, however I feel increasingly more markets are going to maneuver on this path. That’s why I feel we’re in a correction is that sure, most markets at the moment are beginning to see declines. I feel increasingly more of them are, and I don’t know precisely if nominal house costs on a nationwide degree will fall subsequent 12 months.
I feel lots of that may come down to provide facet, which we’re going to speak about for lots of this episode. So keep tuned for that. However simply needed to name out what’s happening with house costs and that we must always count on extra weak spot, softness, typically talking with house costs going ahead. A pair different issues to notice simply as traders and actual property business consultants right here days on market proceed to go up, we’re now at 49 days. Seven weeks is the typical days on market. That is very completely different from the place we have been a few years in the past. That is one more reason that I mentioned on the high of this episode that offers and reductions are getting simpler to seek out. Issues are sitting available on the market longer and that offers patrons extra negotiating energy. Actually, you’ll be able to truly measure how good the negotiating energy is getting by this different piece of information known as the worth to listing ratio.
This principally measures what proportion of the asking value a vendor truly winds up getting for a property they listing available on the market, and proper now it’s at 98%, which means that the typical purchaser is negotiating a reduction of not less than 2%. Now, a few years in the past, the typical value to listing ratio was like 1 0 3 and issues have been even getting listed larger. And so this simply reveals that it’s switched from a market the place issues have been on common going above, asking to. Now on common issues are going 2% under, asking folks won’t really feel like 2% is that a lot, however that’s truly quite a bit for my part as a result of the median house value proper now, 430,000, in case you are getting that 2% off, that’s practically $9,000 in financial savings additionally, that’s simply the typical. And in case you are an actual property investor and also you’re seeking to purchase deep and purchase nice worth, hopefully you will get three or 4 or 5% under asking, which might be 10,000, it might be $20,000 off your asking value, and that basically issues.
In order a purchaser for actual property, these issues are encouraging as is the truth that the median mortgage fee proper now could be at 2,500 bucks. I feel that’s excellent news. It’s in all probability a mix of costs falling a bit bit, mortgage charges getting a bit bit higher, they’re form of again up once more. However I feel that’s encouraging. Once more, say it with me, any enchancment in affordability is sweet information for the housing market. So I’m taking this one as a win. After which the very last thing I need to share, which is kind of an excellent transition to our subsequent part the place we’re going to speak about delists, is that new listings, the quantity of houses which are being listed on the market in any given month is up solely 3.4% 12 months over 12 months. I do know it’s shocking as a result of everybody says there’s far more stock and there may be extra stock.
Persons are saying sellers are flooding the market and the housing market’s going to crash. I don’t know, new listings solely up 3.4% 12 months over 12 months. That’s fairly regular change in any given 12 months. That doesn’t sound like a flood of listings happening, and I feel because of this so many individuals within the housing market deal with the demand facet. Should you ask the typical individual what’s going to occur within the housing market, in the event you learn the information, the typical information story goes to speak about demand facet, which means it’s speaking about patrons, what they’re doing, how many individuals can afford what, however the provide facet is equally vital. The availability facet is essential. It’s not less than 50% and I feel it’s going to inform us quite a bit about what’s going to occur in 2026 and there are new traits, modifications taking place on the provision facet of the housing market. We’re going to get into that proper after this fast break. Stick with us.
Welcome again to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Thanks all a lot for being right here. Earlier than the break, we talked about just a few traits happening with pricing and the way the customer’s market is actual and patrons are benefiting from the scenario proper now as a result of once you’re in a purchaser’s market, what it means is that there are extra houses on the market than there are patrons, and which means sellers need to compete for patrons. However we’re seeing this new pattern emerge that might reverse that or not less than may stabilize it. So I discussed earlier that new listings are down. That’s one factor that might stabilize it, however we are literally beginning to see that delists individuals who put their house up on the market after which take it off has elevated quite a bit. It’s truly on the highest it’s been in eight years since 2017, which was some pretty unremarkable 12 months in housing, however principally it’s gone all the best way again to the place we have been eight years in the past.
Now in the event you’re questioning what the technical definition right here is, I’m this information and principally one thing counts as a delisting when it goes off the marketplace for greater than 31 days with out promoting or going beneath contract. And that’s principally what we’re seeing proper now as of this level in 2025, we’ve seen about 84,000 such listings this 12 months. Final 12 months it was simply 66,000. So that may be a very vital improve. That’s like a 30% 12 months over 12 months soar. Should you go all the best way again to 2021 when issues have been clearly insane, it was about 46,000. We’ve gone from 46,004 years in the past to 84,000. That’s a extremely large soar. We have to ask ourselves why is that this taking place and why is that this altering a lot in simply the final 12 months? As a result of it did go up when costs went up, but it surely’s been form of flat in 22, 23, 24, it didn’t actually change.
So why is it altering now in 2025? Effectively, the reason being form of self-evident, proper? It’s that sellers usually are not getting the costs that they need. For years, sellers may principally throw a dart at a dartboard, exit with any itemizing value that they need. Perhaps they didn’t get full listing, however they have been getting provides. They have been in all probability getting a number of provides, and that has fully modified. I’m attempting to promote a home myself proper now and everyone seems to be negotiating. Everyone seems to be attempting to low ball you, and that doesn’t imply you continue to can’t earn cash off these items, but it surely simply reveals the psyche of patrons have modified, and I feel that has led lots of sellers to say, you realize what? I don’t need to promote proper now. I’m not going to get the worth that I would like. I’m not going to get the phrases that I would like, so I’m not going to only have my property sit available on the market.
I’m going to take it down and possibly I received’t transfer in any case, or possibly I’ll await higher promoting situation. And I feel this pattern goes to proceed as a result of this in all probability is clear to you, however the houses which are getting delisted are those which have been sitting available on the market the longest, proper? The common house that was delisted in September, which is the place this information is from, had been available on the market for greater than 100 days. As of now, seven in 10 listings available on the market proper now have gone stale as of September, and off means 60 days. So that they’re not at {that a} hundred day mark, however the truth that 70% of listings at the moment are at that 60 day mark implies that lots of them are in all probability going to be heading in the direction of {that a} hundred day mark. Not that that’s some magical quantity, however I feel it reveals that increasingly more sellers are in all probability going to face this resolution within the subsequent couple of months, whether or not they need to de-list and take away their property on the market or they’re going to wait it out and simply see what they’ll get.
So total, persons are eradicating their properties as a result of frankly lots of them usually are not getting what they need or they don’t need to take a loss. Truly, the info right here reveals that about 15% of the houses that have been delisted in September have been liable to promoting at a loss, which is an honest quantity. And they also’re principally selecting to not lose cash on a sale, which is smart to me, however 85% of individuals have the fairness. They may flip a revenue in the event that they went to go promote. They’re simply selecting to not. And I feel that’s vital as a result of as we discuss on the present quite a bit, the best way a correction turns right into a crash is when sellers now not have a selection of whether or not they need to promote. And lots of these folks, even the individuals who might be underwater and taking a loss, that doesn’t imply they need to promote it, doesn’t imply they’re lacking mortgage funds.
That’s an important distinction right here. They simply wouldn’t earn cash. And so all these folks collectively are deciding that they don’t need to promote proper now. Now, after all, you might in all probability intuit that this issues as a result of the extra delists that we’ve got explains why house costs are rising, even if house purchaser demand will not be actually that sturdy. It’s truly gone up a bit bit within the final couple of weeks, however actually for all intents and functions, during the last 12 months or so, demand for housing has not modified very a lot, however we haven’t gone right into a full blown crash, and that’s as a result of though patrons are adjusting to this new actuality, sellers are additionally adjusting to this new actuality. I began this phase by saying that folks at all times overlook the provision facet of the market, however the provide facet is completely essential. And the truth that one new listings are solely up 3.4% 12 months over 12 months reveals that sellers are reacting to dangerous promoting situations.
The truth that extra persons are taking their properties off the market than they’ve in eight years is exhibiting that sellers are reacting to dangerous promoting situations. If there was a disaster available in the market and there was going to be a crash, these folks wouldn’t be taking their properties off the market. They might be reducing costs in the event that they have been determined they usually have been attempting to promote. That is what occurred throughout the monetary disaster. Individuals needed to promote. They didn’t have the choice to take it down, and they also needed to decrease their value and decrease their value and take any provide that they might get, and that form of mentality spirals. However the reverse is going on proper now. Persons are saying, nah, I don’t like these promoting situations. I don’t need to promote, and so I’m not going to, and that is once more, the signal of a correction, not a crash.
Should you dig into this, the markets with the very best proportion of delists are the markets which are correcting essentially the most. So we see in Austin, in Miami, in Fort Lauderdale, in Dallas, in Denver, highest variety of delists. Should you have been in a crash and there was a real emergency there, do you assume the markets that have been happening essentially the most would have essentially the most delists? No. You’ll see greater value cuts. You’ll see increasingly more folks itemizing their property on the market. As an alternative, we have been seeing folks saying, I don’t like this. We’re in a correction. Our market is weak proper now for sellers. I’m going to take a seat again and wait to see what occurs, and I ought to point out, that is regular. That is what you’d count on. That is the logical response for sellers who don’t must promote and don’t need to take a loss.
Some folks may say, Hey, I actually simply want to maneuver. I’m keen to take a loss. Tremendous, however not everybody goes to do that, so that is the logical factor that’s going to occur. Now you could be questioning if that is going to proceed. Do they take it down? Simply put it again up. I used to be interested by that myself, and so I seemed into it and up to now the info reveals that solely 20% of houses which have been taken down have been re-listed. We’ll see what occurs. A part of me thinks that that quantity may return up after the brand new 12 months. Individuals took their houses down in September, October as a result of there’s at all times this slowdown in This fall and possibly they’ll re-list them in January. We’ll see, however 20% is low. It’s fairly low. It reveals that persons are not that wanting to get again into this market, however this can be a pattern that we’re going to look at.
We take a look at new listings quite a bit this 12 months, however this de-listing pattern is one thing that we’ve got to maintain a watch out for as a result of if this pattern continues, we truly may see stock plateau, proper? All these folks saying there’s going to be a crash website stock, stock goes up, stock goes up. We would truly see a plateau in response to Redfin. Lively listings, which is a measurement of stock is barely up 6% 12 months over 12 months. That isn’t a crash territory, proper? 6% 12 months over 12 months stock progress, that’s not quite a bit. And so if delists proceed, if new listings keep at this decrease charge, we’d see stock peak, and that might present a steady base for the housing market to both recuperate from a correction or keep form of flat for the following 12 months or so, which as you all know, I feel is the most definitely state of affairs.
But when delisting actually begin to drop, we will see costs develop subsequent 12 months. The rationale I’m sharing it’s because it’s so vital to take a look at the provision facet and see how the well being of sellers is. We have to measure how determined they’re. I imply, I do know that sounds fairly dramatic, but it surely’s true. That’s what a crash would take. Sellers must get determined, and this information reveals us that sellers usually are not determined, not less than as of but. Hopefully, this helps you perceive the place the housing market is and why it retains saying that we have been in a correction and never a crash, however there are some regarding indicators within the broader financial system if we’re not simply housing. If we zoom out and take a look at what’s taking place with the American shopper, I do have issues there, and we’re going to get into the brand new information that’s shedding some gentle on the powerful time the typical American is having, particularly the typical younger American. Proper after this fast break, we’ll be proper again.
Welcome again to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Earlier than the break, we talked about Delists and the way that’s exhibiting a logical response to what’s happening within the housing market, on the provision facet and why I feel that reveals us we’re in a correction, not a crash, however I do need to say not every part is rosy proper now, and the extra and information that we get concerning the broader financial system, the extra issues I’ve as I feel the phrase recession is just about ineffective. I got here up with, I put out an entire episode speaking about that just lately, so I don’t need to, I’m not even going to get into this argument about whether or not we’re in a recession or not, however I feel the truth is that American customers are struggling, and I do know that may sound summary, but it surely does matter for actual property, and I’ll clarify why in only a minute.
I must also point out that this episode’s popping out on Tuesday. On Thursday, I’m going to do a deep dive into one thing known as the Ok formed financial system. It’s this concept, in the event you haven’t heard of this, is that the US financial system is, there’s principally two completely completely different realities. They’re the excessive revenue earners, the wealthier 10, 20% of the US. They’re doing nice, however the backside half of the financial system, possibly the underside three quarters of the financial system resides in a really completely different actuality, and that’s going to have big implications for housing and the housing marketplace for leases, every part going ahead. And so I’m going to do a deep dive into that on Thursday, so examine that out. I feel will probably be fairly eyeopening for all of you what’s truly happening, however a few information items got here out during the last couple of days that I simply needed to level out to maintain you all knowledgeable.
Client confidence continues to fall. Persons are not feeling good concerning the financial system, and really there’s this different measurement that comes out with the buyer confidence report, which is simply shopper expectations. How do they really feel about their private funds? And they’re on the lowest level they’ve been since 2009. I feel that may be a actually vital factor. I’m not attempting to be sensational right here, however the truth that persons are evaluating their very own private funds to the depths of the monetary disaster has to imply one thing, proper? Individuals weren’t even saying that in 2020 when everybody was freaking out about COVID. Individuals weren’t even saying that in 2021 and 2022 when inflation was working rampant and was destroying folks’s spending energy. So clearly one thing regarding is happening right here. Now, after all, shopper sentiment, it’s not a tangible factor, but it surely does matter as a result of it’s a lead indicator for different issues that may occur, and precise impacts are beginning to present up.
For instance, automobile delinquencies, proper? Persons are paying their automobile notes much less and fewer proper now. They’re truly reached the very best degree. They’ve been since 1994, larger than they have been throughout the.com bust larger than they have been throughout the nice monetary disaster. We’re at practically 6.6% for automobile mortgage delinquencies, which issues. Now, I do know that folks cautious and nervous about delinquencies and foreclosures and defaults on debt due to the monetary disaster. I simply need to name out that the auto mortgage market is a fraction of the house purchaser market. It’s like 10% of the whole house market, so it’s not on that scale. So I’m not attempting to say this to say, oh, the entire system goes to disintegrate. I’m simply telling you, anytime I feel folks begin to default on debt, that’s regarding as a result of in the event you examine the financial system, enterprise cycles, recessions and dangerous financial occasions begin when debt begins to default.
That’s principally the set off that usually units off a series response of destructive financial outcomes. And though we’ve got seen very low delinquencies by historic requirements within the housing market, which I need to reiterate essential, we’re not seeing this within the housing market. The common American house owner nonetheless paying their mortgage, nonetheless doing properly, however different cracks are beginning to evolve. We’re seeing it in scholar loans, we’re seeing it in automobile funds, and this can be a regarding pattern that we have to control. The following factor I need to name out, I noticed this the opposite day and it was actually involved about this. Should you take a look at the unemployment charge in the US, it’s nonetheless fairly low. It’s like 4.4%. It’s not dangerous. It’s going up, however by historic requirements, 4.4% unemployment is sweet, however I noticed this information level that the unemployment charge for folks between the ages of 20 and 24 is now 9.2%.
That’s loopy. That’s actually dangerous. Simply so you realize, the general unemployment charge throughout the nice monetary disaster, which was dangerous, that was a foul job. Loss recession was round that, that was round 9%. Now, clearly that’s not taking place throughout all the financial system, however the truth that so many younger persons are out of labor goes to have broad implications for the financial system, and I feel particularly for housing, clearly that is simply dangerous. Younger folks clearly want jobs, however I feel this actually issues quite a bit for actual property traders to bear in mind as a result of younger folks normally type households, proper? Family formation is the idea of rental demand and housing demand. How many individuals are on the market on the lookout for houses and younger folks specifically, in the event that they’re unemployed or in the event that they don’t have well-paying jobs are in all probability not going to exit and type these households, which means they’re going to reside with lots of roommates or they’re going to reside with their dad and mom or discover different lodging as an alternative of going out and getting that one bed room or studio condo, and there’s indicators all throughout the financial system that this phase of individuals is hurting, proper?
It’s the unemployment charge. Pupil mortgage debt may be very excessive and delinquencies on that scholar mortgage debt goes up. Should you take a look at that automobile fee factor, I used to be simply speaking about who has the very best delinquency charge? It’s younger folks. That’s at all times true. It’s at all times younger individuals who have the very best delinquency charges, however that mixed with the truth that they’re having bother discovering work. I additionally noticed a stat {that a} school diploma now now not provides you any benefit find a job. That’s loopy. That’s a pattern that’s been taking place, however in the event you’re on the lookout for a job, having a highschool diploma and having a university diploma at this proper now, about the identical likelihood of getting a job. Now, school graduates nonetheless do have the next wage premium. They earn extra, however that’s fairly wild, and so that is one cause I’m rising more and more pessimistic about hire progress within the subsequent 12 months.
I simply assume this mixed with additional labor market weak spot goes to constrain hire progress. Persons are struggling on their automobile funds. Persons are struggling on their scholar mortgage funds, bank card debt. Truly, the delinquency charges form of leveled off. That’s an excellent signal, however folks normally are having a tough time affording issues, and so to me, family formation goes to gradual. I feel we’re going to see much less and fewer folks putting out on their very own, shifting out of their dad and mom’ house, shifting away from having a roommate, and that’s a foul signal for hire progress. I’ll simply be trustworthy about it. I feel it’s a foul signal for housing demand. Perhaps provide will react accordingly, however that is the primary factor that I needed folks to remove right this moment is as you’re underwriting, as you’re planning for 2026, I might have very modest hire progress expectations within the first half of this 12 months.
I feel I used to be saying by 2026, I feel hire progress goes to select up, and I based mostly that prediction and perception based mostly on provide, on the multifamily provide that’s working its means by means of the market, and that’s taking place. The multifamily provide is working its means by means of the market, however I feel the demand facet is getting weaker and goes to remain weak. I personally don’t see a turnaround within the labor market taking place within the close to future. I do know, yeah, possibly the Fed will minimize charges 25 foundation factors. You assume all these corporations are going to begin hiring 20 12 months olds as a result of the fed minimize charge 25 foundation factors. I undoubtedly don’t, and so I feel hold your expectations for hire progress decrease, particularly if that is your goal demographic. I lease to lots of younger professionals, that’s the place I’ve purchased homes and multifamilies over my entire profession, and the people who find themselves normally my tenants are of their twenties, and so I’m undoubtedly going to mood my expectations for hire progress within the subsequent 12 months.
Should you’re renting to households or older people, it could be a bit bit higher, however I simply need to name out that I’m personally altering my very own forecast for hire progress subsequent 12 months, and I feel it’s going to be fairly weak, and I don’t know your market, clearly look into your individual market, however I feel these broad traits counsel that try to be cautious about your individual hire progress expectations within the subsequent 12 months. That’s what I’m going to be doing, and I simply need to name this out so you’ll be able to contemplate doing it as properly. We’re going to dive into this matter once more, much more simply concerning the completely different economies, the way it’s form of cut up in the US, and what this implies for housing way more in Thursday’s episode, so ensure that to tune in for that. For now, that’s all we obtained for right this moment’s episode of On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Thanks a lot for listening.